看完整场访谈，能感受到一个当时遭遇挫败但是心中一直拥有不灭火焰的形象。
本篇不多做评论，主要是摘抄一下访谈，因为我不打算去看第二遍。
能看到童年对他产生了诸多影响，在 NASA Ames 见到了人生第一台计算机，虽然只是一个time sharing terminal. 见识那种输入后自动计算输出的魔力。
I become very captivated by computer.
13岁那年他通过电话簿找到惠普员工的电话，谈了他想做的事并收到邀请去暑期实习。那是他第一次感受到一家公司的运营管理，整天几个小时的在那里写Basic和APL程序。也是在Hewlett Packard，他认识了Steven Wozniak，一个比他大五六岁，第一个比他更懂电子技术的人。他们开始一起做项目。
It was clear that the company recognized its true values was its employee.
在阅读 《Esquire》杂志时发现有人可以打免费电话，于是他很奇怪会想为什么，不断查阅最后在Stanford Linear Accelerator找到一本AT&T手册，通过模拟声音信号这个缺陷，伪装成AT&T的计算机，制作了Blue Boxing.
AT&T made a fatal flaw when they designed an original telephone network, digital telephone network was they put the signal in from computer to computer in the same band as your voice. Which meant if you could make those same signals, you could put it right into the handset. And literally, the entire AT&T international phone network would think that you were on AT&T computer.
这件事对于他将来制作products的影响是决定性的。
What was so interesting is that we were young, and what we learned was that we could build something, ourselved. That could control billions of dollars worth of infrastructure in the world. We could build the little thing that could control agiant thing. And that was an incredible lesson. I don't think there would have ever been an Apple computer had there not bee Blue Box.
当时Mountain View有免费的time sharing computers，但是用户是需要一个连接到这些计算机的terminal的。因为没有买不起，所以他和Woz凑零件做了这样一个terminal，接着Apple I 是这个terminal的扩展，两个项目。
Apple I was the extension of this termnial, putting a micro process around the back end. We really built it for ourselved because we couldn't afford to buy anything.
在节目里面说Apple I找VC的时候，说到当时VC对他的评价，他笑得像个孩子。
I ran across one venture capitalist name Don Valentine, who came over to the garage. And he later said I look like a renegade from the human race, that was his famous quote.
Apple I 参加了 West Coast Computer Fair， 虽然当时也只是个小比赛，但是对他们来说是很大了。有一种特别的自豪感。
I think, you know, my recollection is that we stole the show.
开始量产的时候他会很奇怪为什么工厂预估成本再调整，后来思考发现实际上因为信息系统不完善，所以没法做到精确控制成本，一脸鄙夷。
So in business, a lot of things are … I call it "folklore".
以上是创业初期，然后开始谈一些话题。
关于编程，一方面是帮助了dog work，另一方面教会了他如何去真正思考。
But much more importantly, it does nothing to do with using them for anything practical, have to do with using them to be a mirror of your thought process, to actually learn how to think.
关于公司，Apple计算机在商业上获得了巨大的成功，terrific success.
The company grew like topsy and eventually went public.
23岁100万，24岁1000万，25岁1亿，但是钱最重要的作用在于，能够让他实现一些长期目标。
I think money is wonderful thing because it enables you to do things, it enables you to invest ideas that don't have a short term payback and things like that.
谈起他去Xerox参观是几个同事怂恿的，当时有三个产品，他完全被第一个图形界面吸引了，第二次带了 团队去，主持人提起这次Xerox拖延了三小时才给他们看图形界面。他说完全没有意识到Xerox这次不太愿意给他们参观了，他觉得无所谓，反正最后他们看到了，表情特别傲娇。
It's good they showed us, because the technology burned and crashed at Xerox.
I was so blinded by the first one that I didn't ever really see the other two.
实际上从现在来看，Jobs后来重掌Apple后，另外两个项目起了主导作用，1 objected oriented programming, 2 networked using email, etc.
接下来是图形界面的开发。
Xerox完全是可以成为一家独占行业的公司，但是败在了传统上。传统的公司垄断市场后通过销售获得利润，然后销售掌握大位，产品部门没有话语权。特别是认识后来踢他出公司的Jon Sculley以后。以前Sculley百事公司做总裁，一个产品永远不需要变、只是换换瓶子的公司。垄断性的科技企业IBM, Xerox这样做的时候就会失去打造优秀产品的热情。
The product genius brought them to that monopolistic position gets rotted out by people running this companies who have no conception of a good product versus a bad product. They have no conception of craftsmanship that's required, that take a good idea and turn it into a good product. And they really have no feeling in their hearts usually about wanting to really help the customers.
The people in Xerox PARC used to call the people who runs the Xerox tonerheads.Basiclly, they were copier heads, just have no clue about what a computer can do.
开始雇的惠普员工做图形界面，无法和他们进行讨论，那些招来的人觉得图形界面就是几个soft button，鼠标的开发需要5年，成本300美元以上。于是他不找自己公司的做了，去外面找了David Kelly design，只用了90天做出了成本15美元的鼠标，同时质量很好，phenomenally reliable. 这次他意识到Apple没有足够的人才来完成idea。
When they started getting bigger, they want to replicate their initial success, and a lot of them think well somehow there are some magic in the process, of how success is created.
And before very long, people get very confused that the process is the content, that's ultimately the downfall of IBM. IBM has the best process people in the world, they just forgot about the content. And that's so what happened a little bit at Apple too, we had a lot of people who ar egreat at management process, and they just didn’t' have a clue as to the content.
在他心里，一心想着产品的人才是Apple需要的优秀人才。
And in my career, I found that the best people you know are the ones who really understand the content. They are pain in the butt to manage, you know but you put up with it because they are so great at the content. And that's what makes a great product, it's not process, it's content.
但是过于重视产品导致了，接下来Lisa的失败。一本正经甩锅HP guys，当时他们觉得1万美元不贵。
But that was not enough fundamental content understanding. Apple drifted too far away from its roots.
这次失败让他brooded几个月，然后振作起来开始了Macintosh的研发。
But it was not long after that it really occurred to me that if we didn't do something here, the Apple II was running out of gas.
特别自豪讲起Apple II救了苹果，re-invented everything.参观了日本大约80加自动化工厂，然后回加州建立了世界上第一座自动化计算机工厂。
We were on a mission from God to save Apple. No one else thought so, but it turned out we were right.
4年时间不仅打造出了产品（虽然比计划上的2000美元贵了500），还建立了全新的distribution system和完全不同的marketing approach。
开始谈什么是做产品最重要的，他先讲了Sculley的反面例子。
It's the "disease" of thinking that a really great idea is 90% of the work, and if you just tell all these other people, "here is this great idea!", then of course they can go off and make it happen.
The problem with that is that there is just tremendous amount of craftsmanship in between a great idea and a great product. And as you evolve the great idea, it changes and grows, it never comes out like it starts. Because you learn a lot more, you get into the subleties.
真正做产品是不断打磨原始的概念。
You also find there's tremendous trade-offs that you have to make. I mean you know there are just certain things you can't make electrons do, there are certain things you can't make plastic do, or glass do, or factories do, robots do.
And you get into all these things, designing a product is keeping 5000 things in your brain. These concepts and fitting them all together in and kind of continuing to push and fit them together and in new and in different ways to get what you want. And everyday you discover something new that is new problem or new opportunity to fit these things together or a little differently. It's that process taht is the magic.
团队合作的理念，来源于小时候邻居给他看打磨石头的过程。
The same common stones had gone in through rubbing against each other like this, creating a little bit of friction, creating a little bit of noise, had come out these beautiful polished rocks.
And that's always been in my mind that, my metaphor for a team working really hard on something they're passionate about it's that through the team, through that group of incredibly talented people bumping up against each other. Having arguments, having fights sometimes, making some noise, and working together they polish each other.
Most things in life, the dynamic range between average and the best , is at most 2 to1.
In software, and it used to be the case with hardware too, the difference between average and the best is 50 to 1, maybe a 100 to 1. Very few things in life are like this.
So I built lots of my success of finding these truly gifted people, and not settling for B and C players, really going for A players.
They become self-policing, they only want to hire more A players together.
When you get really good people, they know they are really good, and you don't have to baby people's ego so much.
看了这段才发现他特别可爱的一面，关于他经常直接批评work is a shit.
You need to do it in a way that doesn't call into question your confidence in their abilities. But, leaves not too much room for interpretation that the work they have done for the particular thing is not good enough to support the goal of the team. And that's a hard thing to do. I always take a very direct approach.
I am also one of these people, I don't really care about being right, I just care about success.
So you will find a lot of people that would tell you that I had a very strong opinion, and they present evidence in conrtrary and 5 minutes later I can change my mind. Cause I like that, I don't mind being wrong. And I admit that I am wrong a lot, doesn't really matter to me too much.
What matters to me is that we do the right thing.
关于Apple在整个行业不景气下的衰退，关于和Sculley的纷争，他用一种不带偏见的口吻来叙述。
The industry went into a recession
All those problems got put into a pressure cooker, because of this contraction in the market place.
He had incredible survival instinct. And John decided that a really good person to be the root of all the problems would be me. And so we came to loggerheads.
Apple is in a state of paralysis in the early part of 1985.
主持人形容1985年没有位置给Jobs，是一种流放【Siberia】。他说当时很想留下来，试图申请过每年只要几百万预算谋求自己另外成立一个小研发部门，都没有人同意，no position, no opportunity, my office was taken away. 看着这一段特别心酸。
下面也适用于目前的Apple。
Apple is dying a very painful death, it's on a glide slope too, to die.
What happened was the understanding of how to move these things forward, and how to create these new products, somehow evaporated. And I think a lot of people stuck around for a while, but there wasn't an opportunity to get together and do this, cause there wasn't any leadership to do that.
So, what's happens with Apple now is that they had fallen behind in many aspects certainly in market share, and most importantaly their differentiation has been eroded by Microsoft
And so what they have now is that they have their installed base, which is not growing, which is shrinking slowly. But would provided a good revenue stream for several years, but it's a glide slope, it's just gonna go like this.
So it's unfortunate and I don't really think it's reversible at this point of time.
谈微软的发家之路。
Microsoft's orbit made possible by a Saturn 5 booster called IBM.
Most people don't remember but until 1984 with the Mac, Microsoft was not in the application business, which dominated by Lotus. And Microsoft took a big gamble, to write for the Mac. But they kept at it and make them better, and eventually, they dominated the Macintosh application market. And then use the spring board of Windows to get into the PC market with the same applications, and now they dominated the application business in the PC space too.
So they have 2 characteristics, I think they are very strong opportunitists. And I don't mean that in a bad way. And two, they are like the Japanese, they just keep on coming. Now they were able to do that because of the revenue stream from the IBM deal, but nonetheless they made the most of it and I gave them a lot of credit for that.
The only problem with Microsoft is they just have no taste.
They don't think fo original ideas, and they don't bring much culture into their products.
微软使他难过的不是他们的成功，而是他们带给大众以平庸，大众也接受了这些没有灵魂之物。
Their products have no spirit to them. Their products have no sort of spirit of enlightenment about them. They are very pedestrain. And the sad part is that most customers don't have a lot of that spirit either.
But the way we are going to ratchet it up, our species, is to take the best, and to spread it around to everybody. So that everyoen grows up with better things, and start to understand the subtleties of these better things. And Microsoft is just McDonalds.
And that's what saddens me. Not that Microsoft has won, but that Microsoft products don't displayed more insight and more creativity.
施乐看到的第二件产品，面向对象，这个产品的伟大在于工程化快速开发大型软件，这是他在NEXT做的事情， 当前300人的公司，5000-7500万美元。
This object technology let you build software 10 times faster, and it's better.
关于未来十年的展望。
One is objects, and another is web.
The Web is incredibly exciting because it's the fullfillment a lot of our dreams, that the computer would ultimately not be primarily a device for computation but metamorphosis into a device for commmunication, and with the web that's finally happening.
I think the Web is going to be profound in what it does to our society.
小时候《Scientifc America》读到文章比较每公里不同物种的卡路里消耗，人类是倒数的，但是如果算上骑自行车，人类把其他物种远远甩在了身后。这个时代计算机相当于给思维以一辆自行车。
Humans were tool builders, and we build tools that can dramatically amplify our innate human abililites.
As you know when you set vector off in space, if you can change direction a little bit at the beginning, it's dramatic when it gets few miles on space, and I fell we are still really at the beginning of that vector, and if we can nudge it into right directions, it would be a much better thing as it progresses on.
在当时那个计算机时代找寻方向。
Q: How do you know what's the right direction?
A: ultimately it comes down to taste. It comes down to trying to expose yourself to the best things that humans have done and try to bring these things into what you are doing. And Picasso had a saying "good artists copy, great artists steal". We have always been shameless about stealing great ideas.
And I think part of what made the Macintosh great was that people working on it were musicians and poets and artists and zoologists and historians, who also happened to be the best computer scientists in the world.
But if it hadn't been for computer science, these people would have all been doing amazing things in other fields and they all brought with them, we all brought to this effort a very liberal arts sort of air, a very liberal arts attitude that we want to pull in the best that we saw in other fields into the field. And I don't think you'll get that if you are very narrow.
Hippie和Nerd如果一定要选的话会选是Hippie， 童年是那个充满理想主义的60, 70年代，看过许多Hippie活动，那些就在自家后院的Hippie活动。
There was something beyond, sort of what you see everyday. There are something going on here in life beyond just a job, a family. 2 cars in the garage and a career. There's something more going on, there's another side of the coin, that we don't talk about much.
And we experience when there are gaps, when we kind of aren't when everything is not ordered or perfect and when there's a kind of gap, you experience this inrush of something.
And a lot of people have set off throughout history to find out what that was, you know whether it's Thoreau or the Indian mystics, whatever it might be, and the hippie movement got a little bit like that, they want to find out what that was about, and life wasn't about what they saw their parents doing.
And of course the pendulum swung too far the other way, that was too crazy. But there was a germ of something there, and it's the same thing that causes people to want to be poets instead of bankers, and I think that's a wonderful thing. And I think that same spirit can be put into products, and these products can be manufactured and given to people, they can sense that spirit.
So I don't think that most of those really best people that I had worked with, had worked with computers for the sake of working with computers, they work with computers because they are the medium that is best capable of transmitting some feelings that you have, you want to share with other people.
印象比较深的是三点。
一是他有一个开阔的思维，这包含了他开阔的胸襟。一直在追寻the best thing，与最好的人共事，并不在乎别人对自己的看法。不仅非常直白dis别人的缺点，也会直白去欣赏别人的成功。Really good people是不需要去baby ego的。
二是他十几岁时候开始编程，对他来说学会了一种重要的思维模式，编程程序本身就像自己思维过程的镜子。我觉得他非常可贵的是永远保持的好奇心，在这样一种反思的二级思维框架下加上好奇心，可以不断去打磨自己的ideas。
三是公司变大以后往往喜欢遵循和复制以往的成功的模式，然后最终导致公司被淘汰。其实社会也一样，因循守旧是能够很好管理秩序，但是人类需要的是不断地进步啊。
想起来Apple store有个条款，you can't defame people. Jobs就是这样一个理性的人，一直以来对事不对人。
带给我的感动在于，要追寻普通生活之上的理想。要努力去和优秀的人共事鸭。
